A heated debate with Jonathan Pollard

The US intelligence analyst (and apparently avid reader) who spied for Israel now wants to expel all Gazans, perhaps to Ireland

Jonathan Pollard, the former US intelligence analyst convicted of spying for Israel, is reportedly planning to join far-right Israeli politics, and now advocates the expulsion of all Palestinians from Gaza, as punishment for supporting Hamas. This is a fringe, disastrous, and immoral idea. But it did produce an illuminating debate today on the Israeli international TV channel I24.

Inter alia, Pollard accused me of spending my career undermining Israel, of not knowing history and of being “fed” information by miscreants in the Israel’s security establishment. I24 anchor Ellie Hochenberg, normally a calming presence, seemed on edge, as if expecting a meltdown at any moment. But we kept it civil nonetheless, perhaps because Pollard revealed that he said he is a reader (if not, alas, a fan).  

Whatever other calamities are to come, I’m pretty sure the Gazans will not be expelled. And I offer here, as a weekend service to subscribers, the video (above) and an only slightly redacted transcript (below, with a bit of commentary in cases where it was somehow too impolite to interrupt).  

Hochenberg, introducing Pollard: Earlier in the war, he said Israel should have shut the mouths of hostage families. Now he eyes annexation, deportation (and) Gazans to be sent to Ireland. What do you mean by sending Gazans to Ireland, sir?

Pollard: Hamas was a creation of the Palestinian people in Gaza. It wasn't something that was imposed on them. It was something that was elected by them. (Not exactly true; Hamas in 2006 won a plurality and not a majority of the vote for parliament and not the executive, in all the Palestinian areas, then seized Gaza a year later by force – DP). … So as far as where they can go is concerned, I find it very unusual, and it should be pointed out, that not one Arab country, nor Iran, nor Turkey, wants them. And it isn't because they're afraid of denying the Palestinians a half-state in Gaza. It's just they realize that wherever these people go, revolution, terror, it comes in their wake. There is absolutely no way we can guarantee security for our southern communities if we allow any of the current residents of Gaza to remain. This is why I've been in favor of annexation and repopulation by Jewish citizens, by Israeli citizens, in Gaza. They started the war, okay? They started it, they lost. So I'm sorry, but by the rules of war and history, they lose basically everything.

EH: Mr. Perry … please chime in.

Dan Perry: I share Mr. Pollard's anger at what happened on Oct. 7th. And like him, I do blame the Palestinian public for supporting Hamas to the degree that they do. However, I fear he is desperately wrong about the rules of war and precedents in history.